Interview - Full Response

Thomas Moore   with The Rev. Wayne Walder

(TM):

I would think that those emotions, like jealousy and envy and fear, would come out when people themselves are not certain about their own work. I mean if they were confident in their own work they would not feel these things so much. It may also mean the opposite as these things usually do – but it could be that people are judged and not honored for their contributions.

I wonder if your people have a way of honoring yourselves. Jealousy, competition and fear are very concrete and they can’t be resolved in an hour of therapy by yourself. So I wonder if there’s enough honour and recognition given to the Ministers – do they get enough?

People doing this work need recognition and it can’t just be theoretical and intellectual, it’s got to be real and concrete. This might be something to think about, I don’t know how that works in the organization, but I think it could be a signal that people are not recognized enough, that there’s not enough honour given. If they had everyone’s confidence, they’d feel more free and more easily able to see and enjoy another’s success. It’s a problem with any organization.

When you spoke, I was thinking of a group I was with when I was in my 30’s and 40’s – a group in Texas that was a group of psychologists trying to create an outgrowth of Jung’s psychology. We were not a formal group but we knew who was in our group. One thing I really noticed, there was a great appreciation for each other. There was a great wish for each other’s success. We all wanted the others to succeed, I think. That was one thing that was really strong.

This was unusual for me because I had been teaching at a University where the opposite was the case. At the University there was all this envy and jealousy and whenever you succeed, your job was threatened. It was a very strange situation. I was in that position myself, I saw some need, I responded to it. I had very large enthusiastic classes. And it shocked me that my colleagues hated that – they wanted me to fail. And I thought what kind of an organization is this where the people in it want me to fail? It’s a very strange situation. And that’s where the envy and jealousies came through.

It’s so different from this other group – just the opposite. What was the difference? It’s really hard to say. One difference in the Jungian group was that we were all engaged in creating something. So whatever it would take to create that kind of an organization would be the solution to the problem you are presenting.

I think the University professors were working very hard. They knew the challenges, they had to publish to survive and all of that. And they weren’t getting any recognition – there was no recognition really whatsoever. There was no visible appreciation for what they did. I think that was maybe part of the problem. Whereas this other group, we were supporting each other. It’s hard to know where it all starts, or how you can get that to happen. But I think that change of climate really has to take place.